Q. What am I to make of this most consistent appearance pervading my conscious awareness; this body, my reflection, thoughts and plans or schemes to wrestle satisfaction out of this lifetime?  How shall I regard and relate to this appearance moment-to-moment?  How do you?  I seem to be struggling with a lot of junk and the attending feelings and sensations are unpleasant and confusing.

Thanks for your email. You ask: 'How shall I regard and relate to this appearance moment-to-moment?'

The moment you ask that question, you've already moved away from the present appearance of it all, and into a world of attempted intellectual understanding. This present appearance does not need to be escaped, transcended, understood, or even "dealt with" in any way, because it's just an appearance. An appearance for no-one.

It's like when you go see a movie. You know it's a movie, so you don't try and "deal with" the appearance of the movie. The movie just happens. Stuff comes and goes. Things change. And there's no way of knowing what's going to happen in the movie. It's wide open and spacious and unknowable. And it's not yours to control.

And because it's a movie, there's the space for anything to happen. Happy scenes, sad scenes, frightening scenes. Anything can happen in the movie, it's all allowed. The screen on which the movie is projected is never tainted by any of the scenes.

And finally, the screen and the movie are not separate (and this is what the word "nonduality" points to). The question you are really asking is "how do I deal with the movie?". But of course, it's not yours to deal with. In other words, your life isn't really yours at all. It's just life happening. And already it's happening to/for no-one. It's already liberated. Right at the heart of the apparent movie, there is already freedom. Freedom in the happy scenes, the sad scenes, the frightening scenes. It's all already liberated, because already "you" are just a fiction. And what we are pointing to is the seeing of that.

This "understanding" isn't something that comes and goes. Yes, intellectual understanding comes and goes, but that's not what we're pointing to. What we're pointing to does not take place in time.

Many people tell the story you are telling - that this "seeing" seems to be there sometimes, and sometimes there is mesmerisation with the story. Like a remembering and a forgetting. And all the while we secretly prefer the remembering rather than the forgetting. We prefer being "out" of the story rather than "in" the story. This is war. This is duality. Story versus absence of story.

The war stems from the mistaken belief/experience (experience always reflects belief) that there is a separation between being "in" and "out" of the story. They are not two. As long as you are trying (even subtly) to get "out" of the story, you are fueling the story.

Of course, within the movie, you can apparently do a lot of things - make choices, have relationships, change your thinking, follow a spiritual path, attempt to escape the story. But the movie is just a movie. And nothing that you can do from within the movie can get you out of the movie. 

And so where does all that leave you? It leaves you right here, radically so: right here with what's happening. Breathing, heart beating, sounds happening, movement, colour. Just the simple and obvious present appearance of it all. You're left totally embraced by this.

Right here, right now, this is the answer to all questions, because all questions simply dissolve in the child-like wonder of what's happening. And in that, questions like "how do I escape the story?" are rendered meaningless, because it's seen that there's simply no story to escape from, and there never was. There's just what's happening, and it's always enough, and even the most vivid story about "your" life is just a daydream, happening now.

And out of this, life happens. Things get done, or not. Plans get made, or don't. It moves, or not. It speaks, or it doesn't. You're just left here, and you get to see how the movie turns out. And all the while, you know it's all okay, because it's just a movie. It's the love that passes all understanding.

You ask about how I relate to this presence appearance. Well, the answer is that somehow, it all takes care of itself. Somehow, things get done. It wakes in the morning, it puts on clothes, it eats when it's hungry. I cannot relate to this appearance because I am not separate from the appearance. I have no way of separating myself from what's happening. What's happening is myself, which is another way of saying, that there is no person here. And yet, the character "Jeff Foster" continues to function, to live his life, and it's such a gift. But what falls away are the questions. Never do I ask myself how to relate to life, because that question no longer makes any sense to me. There is only life playing itself out, only the vastness, only nothing playing the game of being everything. And of course, those words don’t even touch it. It’s the intimacy that will never be put into words. Intimacy with breathing, with the heart beating, with the body, with the chair, with the table, with the trees and flowers, with everything, as it is. And it's all mine, and none of it is mine, and that apparent paradox dissolves into the absolute simplicity of what is. Jesus said you have to lose your life to save it, and when everything is lost, when there are no longer any questions, when all the seeking falls away, you are simply left with the mystery of it all, and everything is wiped clean, and with the eyes of a child you look at the world, always for the first time, and see only love in its infinite guises.

Jeff ;)

TRANSCRIPTS

Talk with Buddhists

This is an edited transcript from a Nonduality dialogue in September 2007. Questions are in italics, Jeff's words are in normal font.

"All separation, every kind of estrangement

and alienation is false. All is one..."

-Nisargadatta Maharaj

Jeff: “Welcome. And so, we meet once again in the no-thing, in the void, in emptiness, in the space which is really the world in its entirety. And there is no separation – there never was. And really this is where we always meet, in the nothingness from which everything arises. Here, right here.

Here, and only here, is the peace we have always been seeking, but could never find. And why could we never find the peace? Because we were looking for it! Peace was never lost, and so in looking for it, we destroy the possibility of ever finding it. Because it’s not an “it”, not something to be found at the end of a search, but the ground and condition and possibility of all things, the ground out of which the search arises in the first place, the presence which allows everything to be in the first place. And we are always, always here.

It always begins here, always ends here. This is it, this is the Alpha and the Omega, this is creation and destruction, and all is well. All is perfectly well. 

How exciting it is to be here, in the presence that was never absent, the presence which holds this wonderful play of a world, this utterly convincing illusion, this trick of light and sound and smell that claims to be so wonderfully solid, but on closer inspection has no substance at all. We meet here, like newborn babies once again, open to what is, transparent to the All.

Welcome home. Welcome to your very own Self. The only place there ever is. Notice, the idea of an “outside world” is just that, an idea arising now. And you are not separate from that idea. You are not the thinker of that thought. Notice that once there is the belief in a “thinker”, an entire world is born, an entire universe throws itself out of nothingness, instantly – no, quicker than an instant, beyond time altogether - and appears “out there”.

You see, this “thinker”, this “me” is the primary illusion. And it’s not an illusion that needs to be destroyed. Because it’s just a thought. “You” are just a thought, and only a thought would want to end thought!

Q:: Could you say that again?

Of course. Only a thought would want to end thought. Only the mind would want to put an end to mind. You see, the mind says “once the mind has been destroyed, there will be a peace that is beyond mind”. And the mind spends a lifetime trying to reach that peace. Because there is the assumption that there is, in fact, a “mind” in the first place. And the entire spiritual search rests on that assumption: that there is a “mind”, a seeker, a separate person who one day will reach “liberation” or “enlightenment”. And it’s always “one day”, isn’t it? [Laughter]

But where is this “mind”, on which our entire lives are based? Where is this centre, where is the “me”, at the centre of it all? When we really look, I mean really look, it’s just not there! When we really look, all we ever could possibly find is the looking. And nobody’s doing that. There isn’t “someone looking”. There is just the looking. And not even that.

Just the most profound emptiness, which is total fullness. And you are not separate from any of that, which is to say there is no “you” at all. Only the isness, only what is, and nobody there to even name it. Only the Mystery, always the Mystery. Beyond all understanding, beyond any possibility of comprehension. And it’s where we always are.

I was sitting here and thinking, it’s so beautiful… why do we never see this?

Yes, it’s exquisite, in each and every moment, although of course there are no “moments” at all. The mind even creates the concept “moment” and separates this moment from that moment. All a wonderful illusion, a wonderful play.

As adults, this becomes very hard to see, you’re right. As a newborn baby, this was clearly seen. Why? Because a newborn baby is not yet separate. There is only what is happening. Only presence. And then there grew this thing the world calls “mind”, a personality, a separate self, and we tried so desperately to hang onto that, to be something in the world, to accumulate money and power, to succeed, to be as beautiful and true and good as possible. And we built up knowledge, accumulated thousands of concepts, we became full of concepts! Stuffed with them! And that simple, exquisite presence you speak about was apparently lost. The simple joy of being became clouded over by a world, a world of concepts, beliefs, religions, ideologies. By the search for something more. And where did that search ever get us? Did it ever make us happy? Were we ever at peace? Well, sometimes, perhaps. But did it ultimately satisfy?

Well, no. We’re all here, so no! [Laughter]

You see, that was the dream. That there was a person, who lived a life, who made choices and accumulated and efforted and became someone special in the world. You see, all of that is the dream. It’s just a memory, a thought. You are just a memory. And not even that.

[Long silence]

Ah, to be free from yourself! And it’s utterly effortless. Utterly exquisite. The freedom the separate person always craved was always right here, waiting. The mind just got a little confused for a while! [Laughter]

[Silence]

So what are we supposed to do now? Give up?

Ah, we would if we could! Isn’t that the game that is the spiritual search? To give up? To surrender, to relax into Being, to plunge back into the no-thing?

But here’s the point: it’s always turned into a doing, isn’t it? “I need to give up! Why haven’t I been able to give up yet!?” [Laugher]. And so the game goes on. The mind will turn anything into a doing. It will even turn a not-doing into a doing, and spend the rest of its life trying to do that! [Laughter]. Trying to do nothing! Oh, the wonderful games the mind plays, trying to save itself. It really doesn’t want to die. And so it creates all these terrifying stories about death. And it keeps itself going. Always seeking, always wanting, always hoping. Always fleeing from an illusory past, aiming towards a made-up future.

And the wonderful secret is that death is liberation. It’s the end of the mind. And yes, that will happen at the physical death of the body. The plunge into Nothingness, the end of thought, the end of all suffering. The end of the “me”. And isn’t that why we see death as terrifying? Because it’s the end of the “me”, the end of my life, my story, my achievements. The end of my world. It’s all about me, isn’t it! We don’t want to lose ourselves.

And yet, losing ourselves, as all the great spiritual traditions throughout the ages have taught, is the liberation we desire more deeply than anything. To lose your self is to lose all suffering, and to plunge into the Nothingness that is total Fullness. Which is to say, death is to see clearly, for the first time. To see the world without your story, without your projections, labels, interpretations. Which is all you have ever seen!

I’ll be brutally honest: we have never really seen this world. All we have ever seen is mind, is interpretation. And our interpretations never satisfy, do they! Because all interpretations are partial, they are fragments, they are just thoughts. So we have only ever seen fragments. We see everything as divided. This separate from that, me separate from you. And somewhere underneath, another possibility whispers, oh so quietly: that this fragmented story is not the whole story. Fragments are only fragments. Underneath the division, there is a Oneness more stunningly beautiful than the mind could ever grasp. And it is only because of the Oneness that anything can exist at all. Everything – every apparent separate thing – is just a manifestation of this Oneness.

Isn’t Oneness just another concept?

Ah yes, I’m glad you said that! Of course, the moment we speak of Oneness, and fragmentation and so on, we are using concepts, which are always dualistic. We are trying to use concepts to speak of that which is beyond all concepts, trying to use duality to speak of the unity out of which everything arises! And so words will always only ever confuse. But it’s never about the words. Forget all words, even these ones. Instead of these words, listen to a bird sing, or look at a flower, or walk through the streets feeling the ground  beneath your feet and the raindrops on your face. That will say more to you than these words ever could. The mind loves its words, it feasts on its concepts!

But in a talk like this, we have to use words. Of course, that’s not entirely true either, we don’t have to do anything at all. But the words come out. The mouth opens, and sounds happen, and this “Jeff” creature apparently talks. And watch how the mind latches onto these sounds and calls them “words” and tries to work out what they are pointing to. And the point is that they are pointing to nothing. Literally, no-thing. These words, if you try to listen with the intellect, will only confuse. Like a Zen koan, they will drive the mind crazy! Until perhaps, that confusion will drop, and there will only be what is, crystal clear isness. And in that, the truth is revealed. And it’s nothing you could ever be taught.

But doesn’t that suggest some sort of process?

Yes, the moment we talk about things like “confusion dropping” and “seeing clearly” the mind will immediately latch onto this and create some sort of process out of it. The mind will say “I need to drop my confusion so I will get the crystal clarity that Jeff is speaking of”. And the mind has saved itself once again… and has missed the point of this whole thing.  It has gotten itself a future. And the mind loves a future. It gives it life. Without a future (and therefore without a past) the mind has nothing to do, absolutely nothing to do. Oh yes, make no mistake, this message is very threatening to the mind. This message is pointing to nothing less than the end of the mind. And that’s the last thing the mind wants to hear! [Laughter]

So it’s not a question of doing, it’s a question of seeing?

Yes, but it’s not a seeing like any other seeing. It’s not a seeing that a person can do. It’s not a seeing that requires time.

[Silence]

This seeing is what we already are, and the moment any movement is made to do that seeing, to do what we are, we are instantly in the world of illusion. The “I” is born, and gets an identity (as “the one who is trying to see”).

You see, the mind always wants something to do. But we’ve tried everything! We’ve been doing our entire lives, and did it ever satisfy?

I’d have to say no. Nothing has satisfied, not deeply anyway. I guess for me, that’s why I’m here. To get some deeper satisfaction, or, well I don’t know really!

Yes, and even if something did satisfy deeply, that too would pass. All experiences pass. Nothing stays. The Buddhists have known this always: all is impermanent. Like sand through fingers. We can’t capture a damn thing. And even if we think we can, what happens when illness and old age and death come along? What then? Death will strip away everything. And so if we are attached to anything…well, there is the terror! The terror of loss.

But we never had anything in the first place. We only imagined we did. It’s all a wonderful play of thought, happening now, now, and now.

And so this nonduality thing – and I love how the world has given a name to this! -  is not another process, another way of life, another doing. Although the mind may interpret it as that, and sometimes I say that it’s all the mind can do.

But in who or what is the mind arising now? You see, if we see clearly, without any story or interpretation from the past, it’s so obvious: there is only this. The heart beating, breathing, sounds happening over there, someone coughing…. And thoughts just arise. And nobody is doing it. Nobody is beating the heart: it’s just beating. Nobody is breathing, breathing is just happening. The world is already free from “you”. You are already absent.

[Silence]

When you said that, a great excitement welled up. It feels like innocence, like a huge burden lifted….. I don’t know.

Yes, I don’t know either! [Laughter]. It’s the mind dying, the burden of self being seen through for the illusion that it is. A plunge into the Unknown, the Unborn, the Undying, that you already are, that is the world in its entirety. Yes, there can be great excitement. And fear too. But even that is still just a play of mind. “There is excitement”. “There is fear”. Just thoughts. Just thoughts. Arising, dissolving, perfectly. Arising, dissolving, in this clarity, this openness, this transparency that has nothing to do with a personal “you”, yet allows it all fully, with no exception, no exception at all.

Yes, it feels free…. Like it’s uncontaminated by me or something.

Yes, beautiful, uncontaminated. Pure, innocent.

New. Always new.

Always born for the first time.

[Silence]

This is pure, unconditional love. Our true nature. And yes, those are still just concepts. Throw even those concepts away. “Pure, unconditional love” – still a wonderful belief! What happens when even that ideology dies?

[Silence]

This is the death of all you ever knew. The death of you as you know yourself, as you experience yourself. It’s like a rebirth, into the openness that you always were. The openness, the transparency that you knew as a child. We think we lost it, but how could we ever lose something we never had!

Say that again – you mean we never had it?

Yes, because it’s not a thing that we could ever possess. It’s the openness, the space, the transparency, the awareness in which all apparent “things” arise in the first place. The space in which “you” arise! The space that holds all things, embraces all things, allows all things to be exactly as they are. The space that is uncontaminated by what happens. Pain comes and goes, anger comes and goes, wars come and go, dictators die, rain and wind and snow blow through, loved ones arrive and leave, the clouds of life arise, stay for a little bit, and pass, and this openness always is pure, untainted.

Is this openness separate from what arises?

No. There is never any division. It is language that has separated this from that, awareness from its passing content. The final truth, if you want a final truth, is that awareness and what happens “in” awareness are not two. Awareness IS its content.

Wow. [Laughter]

Yes, wow indeed! To the mind, this seems like a complete paradox. That the space in which the world arises is identical with that apparent world. That is nonduality. No separation. No separate “me” who sees the world.

And here’s the shattering conclusion: there is really no world. When there is no “me” to see the world, there is no world either.

And yet it’s not a blank nothingness. Even that is just another concept.

What happens when the “me” who sees the world dissolves? And the world along with it?

Here’s what happens.

[Long Silence]

Did you see it? Did you see that there was nothing to see? [Laughter]

The simple and obvious appearance of it all. Just this. This is the miracle we were always seeking. And yes, “miracle” is just a world. When the person is not there, there’s not even anyone there to call it a “miracle”. There is only the miracle, only God, only the Tao, only Life Itself, only the One, appearing as a million things.

When the search for the extraordinary “out there” collapses, this is seen to be the extraordinary. And it’s utterly ordinary. And the whole ordinary/extraordinary duality collapses on itself.

And what are we left with?

[Silence]

Chop wood and carry water.

[Silence]

Have you finished your soup? Then clean your bowl. That’s an old Zen koan by the way.

The absolute simplicity of this. Everyday life is the miracle. But a mind trying to see that could never see it.

And in this, there are never any problems. There is not even that possibility. Life happens, and nobody is doing it. And nobody is there to know it, to interpret it, to criticise it, to want to escape it.

No problems. And even thoughts that claim that there are problems are not a problem, if they were to arise. What’s the worst thing that could ever happen? Just a thought. Nothing to fear anymore. There never was.

Nothing to fear. Not even death. Death is just a concept. I only see life. Death is just an idea.

There is a strange peace here that I cannot name. A sense of, I don’t know, yes, excitement. Is it that way for you?

Life is nothing but that: the peace we cannot name. To name it is to kill it. And yet naming goes on. We could say: this is a chair, that is a table, that is a lampshade. And yet it’s all a wonderful illusion. But why not say “this is a chair”. Of course it’s not a damn chair! [Laughter].

Years ago, when this was first seen, there was a great excitement. Like a wound-up coil being released. A huge release of pressure. The seriousness of life gone. The childlike wonder and playfulness seen to be the natural state, the way of things. All very dramatic. These days that seeing is constant, if I were to use language to describe it! This is just in response to your question, you see. I have no idea what “way” it is for me, if truth be told. I know that when I speak, it’s all an illusion, a lie in a way. The reference point, the “me”, has no meaning anymore. That’s to say, this apparent character “Jeff” plays in the Void, dances in the space that has always held him. That’s how I might put it in language. But language… well, it’s never true at all. It’s just a wonderful story being told now, in response to a question, and only in response to a question. When there is no question, there is no movement here. [Silence]. Don’t you love how I never give a straight answer? [Laughter]

No, I see. In that peace, it’s like… nothing can be known. I see that question is… meaningless. It implies a me and you, you know, a teacher and student…

Yes, beautiful, meaningless, but perfect in that. And yes, so wonderfully meaningful, because it was asked. No problem. Questions are wonderful, a perfect play of the Divine as they already are. There’s this wonderful apparent play of questions and answers, and people pretending to be people, and coming to meetings like this and asking dream questions to a dream teacher in a dream room, and going back to their dream homes and their dream families. We don’t need to get rid of questions, or families, or anything.

[Silence]

You speak about the dream. Isn’t that somehow…  devaluing life? I mean, if it’s all a dream, why bother?

Well, it may be heard that way. When I say dream, I mean this: that the seriousness, the solidity has gone out of it. The edges have melted away. It really is like a dream, that’s what it feels like. Dreaming and waking – what difference?

But it’s not a cold detachment. The paradox is this: when it’s all seen as a dream, it’s all so incredibly intimate. Because all barriers between “me” and “you” fall away. And in that unknowable space, I see you for the first time, every time. And every time I see you, it’s a new you. And in that space, there is love. We always meet in love. This meeting is a meeting in love. The space where we meet.

And we always meet in this space, in this live without boundaries, without words. There was never a “you” separate from “me”. And if I think I have a problem with you, it’s really just a problem with what I take to be myself. And if I am at war with you, I feel it as war with myself. Because there is not two, there has never been two, there has only ever been One. One appearing as two, as a million things, apparently…. so they say!

This is love. When I meet you with no idea of “you”. When the “me and you” thing drops away. And that takes no time at all. The “me and you” division is just an idea, just a creation of thought.

But it goes so deep.

Yes, yes it does. As children, it begins to be drummed into us! “You are you, and you have a name, and I am me, and I have a name, and there are millions of others like you out there in the world”. And there the violence begins. I’m a Christian, you’re a Jew, he’s a Hindu, she’s a Buddhist. I support one team, one God, one religion, one corporation, one branch of academic knowledge, you support another. My beliefs against yours, her feelings in opposition to his. Division, fragmentation, violence. And there’s no end to it.

But what a wonderful illusion it all is. And the end of the illusion, which is a seeing-through simpler than the mind could ever imagine, there is the end of violence. And then I truly see the one in front of me, with fresh eyes. And know that the one in front of me is really myself. Just a projection. And no, it’s not a cold detachment, it’s unconditional love, it’s exquisitely intimate. But yes, the illusion of individuality goes deep.

And that’s just a thought too?

My, you’re good! [Laughter]. Yes, just another wonderful thought! Nothing could possibly go any deeper than the surface. Than this play of appearances. Something that goes deep, it’s just a thought. “Something that goes deep”. When that thought is believed, when it’s seen as anything more than just a thought, it really feels like something goes deep! Thought creates world. Thought is the world. When thought goes, the world goes with it. And when even that thought goes, well.... we can’t even speak of that. It could never be spoken of. It’s…. grace.

[Silence]

And so, this apparent world goes on. There is still light and colour and sound and apparent people having apparent conversations. But underneath, oh, there is this… clarity. This spaciousness. Vast, infinite.

Right now, the story could go… we’re a bunch of people in a room, talking together… but you see, even that story arises in the Vastness.

You see, we cannot “reach” liberation. If you believe you are a person in this room, who can reach liberation, that’s exactly the thought that’s clouding the liberation that is always here, always, forever, perfectly.

And yet, nothing could possibly cloud liberation. That thought – well, it too is a perfect expression. And this is where nonduality gets really… exciting, really encompassing, vast as the universe. Everything, literally everything, is Oneness. And even the confusion, even the “not getting it yet”, even that is Oneness. The absolute collapse of all duality, of better and worse, and right and wrong, of enlightened and unenlightened. The collapse of it all. And yet, those polar opposites still dance and play, and yes it really is a play, that’s what it feels like. A play, with no purpose or meaning outside of… the play. Nothing outside of itself. Everything perfectly itself, timelessly, forever. And yet no separate things at all. Perfection. Perfection in the last place we’d ever look – right, exactly where we are. Exactly so.

Yes, even the confusion, even the suffering is perfect in itself, because even the most intense suffering is just a thought. “I’m suffering” is a thought. It can be a powerful thought, and yes it’s a thought that can go “deep” as you said, but it’s just a thought. And with that thought comes identity as “the one who suffers”.

So you’re saying that we hang on to suffering to keep our identity?

Exactly, but it’s not something we do. There’s no choice in it. Would we really choose to suffer, if we had the choice?

With “suffering” arises the identity as “sufferer”. They arise together and die together. To let go of suffering is to let go of the one who suffers. So letting go of suffering is terrifying to the mind. The mind projects a void into the absence of the sufferer, the mind is terrified to go into that void, into the Unknown. It’s a little like death, to the mind! What would be left if I lost my identity as the one who suffers?

Well, the answer is freedom! There is only freedom. In the absence of all identity, pure, unadulterated freedom. Freedom to be anything. Freedom to not be anything. No difference. This is why the Buddha spoke of suffering as the great illusion. When I think I am suffering, that is exactly what I experience. And I try desperately to end my suffering. I think this will take time. And in this efforting to end suffering, I create a future.

And what the mind could never see is this: it’s the search for the end of suffering that is maintaining the suffering. And, see if you can see this, it’s the search for the end of suffering that is actually creating suffering in the first place.

So, in looking for peace I’m keeping the suffering going?

And that’s something the mind could never accept. You see, the mind wants to suffer, because in suffering it keeps itself going, makes itself stronger and stronger, keeps itself alive. And the open space, the vastness, the transparency that is your true nature, well, in that there is no need for suffering, no place for it. And yet, out of love, even suffering is allowed. The open space does not deny anything. Suffering is allowed. You can suffer if you want to, and nobody will stop you! [Laughter]

And this is not to deny suffering, this is not a cold hearted denial of anything, not at all. That would be to miss the point of this entirely. No, it’s just to say this: suffering only happens for a person. And that’s fine, that’s wonderful, let’s not deny that. And let’s try to help people if they are suffering, let’s not just say “there’s no individual suffering… so I don’t need to help anyone!”. But that’s really missing the point: what I’m saying is that for a person, yes, there is suffering, but in the absence of the person, in the space that you are, in the presence, the unconditional love that embraces everything, where is the suffering? Where is the one who suffers? Where is anything at all? Nowhere. It’s all seen to be a dream, an illusion, a trick of thought. And yet the play of apparent suffering goes on, until it doesn’t. And when it doesn’t, it’s seen that the suffering was never there in the first place. Only the story of suffering, the story of a person.

I was just thinking, the suffering isn’t there in deep, dreamless sleep. Ramana Maharshi said something about .. that which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real. So really this is what you’re saying?

Yes. Ultimately it’s not real. It’s the dream of waking life! The dream of a person, the dream of suffering and seeking and playing this whole game we call life. And when it’s not seen as a dream, it seems so terribly solid, so terribly concrete, so real and so serious. And when all that falls away, it’s seen to be a play, a fleeting, fragile, beautifully impermanent show.  A movie, if you will. And it’s not a movie that you are sitting back and watching. It’s a movie that you’re totally at one with. And it’s simply because you are no longer there, that you are fully there.

Say that again?

Oh, it’s the wonderful paradox of this, don’t try to understand it! [Laughter] When you are not there, you are fully there, because there is nothing to separate you from it. There is only the “it”, which is to say, there is Nothing at all. Nothing is happening here. There is only total stillness.

But things appear to move, don’t they?

Yes, and the key word there is “appear”. It’s all a wonderful appearance. A play of appearances. For nobody. Arising out of the barest emptiness, and yet appearing as total fullness, as full as full can be. Nothing to separate anymore. The end of war.

And so, we’re nearly done here I think, but really you see, in the absence of what you call “you”, there is a fullness that “you” could never imagine. And because it’s all so utterly illusory and impermanent, it all takes on a solidity and a “rightness” that the isolated individual self could never hope to see.

I see now that I’ve made this into some sort of “state” for myself, and I’ve been driving myself mad trying to get it. But here… now I see that it’s always here, I guess I’ve been driving myself mad in vain. And there’s a kind of sadness, but a strange sense of joy too…

Yes, the sadness… ah, my friend, you were innocent, throughout that whole struggle. The sadness is the loss of that struggle, the innocence of it all, and the joy, well, that is the openness being allowed to breathe again. The openness that you are, that you always were, throughout it all. It’s all unfolding perfectly. The sadness and the joy, and the struggle, all equal in this. All perfectly appropriate, all accepted, all allowed.

[Silence]

Of course, you are right. This is not a “state” that some people have attained. It’s not something that “Jeff” or anyone else has found. This is just a description of the utterly obvious, so obvious that a newborn baby could see it: there is no separate self. Life has no centre, and never did. This character “Jeff” was never real.

And yet, “Jeff” is apparently giving a talk today. What a wonderful paradox this all is, to a mind. And I could say this… that I just sit back and watch Jeff as he talks here. But even to say that, it sounds like there is an entity that sees Jeff! No, that’s the illusion, and it’s inevitable that language will just fuel that illusion. There is no “Jeff” who sees “Jeff”. Here’s what it’s like: Jeff is seen. And Jeff does what he does. And this open space, this transparency is always unaffected, but loves it all, loves it totally, loves it without reservation because the openness is not separate from any of it. And Jeff dances his little dance, sings his little song, and lives his dream life, and one day he will lie down and die and say goodbye to this dream world, and there’s no problem with it, none at all, not even the possibility of that.

Only Presence, only Oneness, only Love. And all is allowed, and all is myself, and really there is nothing called “myself” at all. This will never be understood by the mind. But somewhere beyond the mind, ah,….that’s where the miracle happens. And this is where we meet today, this is where we always meet. And it all unfolds perfectly. No problems, apart from thinking, and really thinking could never be a problem, because thoughts are just thoughts, they are harmless. And the spiritual search, the search of a lifetime, that’s all just a thought too. Harmless, all harmless, all benevolent. Thankyou all.”

Download this dialogue as a booklet:   Word /  PDF

Talk in Brighton, March 2008 - "Freedom is like being a slug!"

An excerpt from 'The Revelation of Oneness : Dialogues on Nonduality and Spiritual Awakening' by Jeff Foster

Q.  Could you tell us how the awakening happened for you?

It’s always happening.

Q.  But there must have been a moment when it happened for you.

After years and years of really intense seeking, after years of meditation and self-enquiry and questioning of thoughts, all that was left, over here, was despair and frustration. I wanted the awakening and enlightenment that I’d read so much about. I wanted peace, and I never seemed to be able to reach that place. What I could never see back then though, was that there was a separate “me” looking for all these things. I wanted awakening and enlightenment, but I wanted them for “me”. And it was the “me” that was the burden, it was the sense of being a separate person that went right to the heart of my frustration. I was trying to end the self using the self. Trying to end thought using thought. I was lost in these vicious circles of mind. Seeking the end of seeking was more seeking than ever.

And it exhausted itself. You cannot awaken. I cannot awaken. There is no such thing as an awakened person. You see, this is already fully awake. There is only awakeness. And it’s the individual, the person, who thinks they are separate from that, and out of this separation, they seek awakening. All this seeking is doing is fuelling the sense of being separate.

So the individual asks “when will I awaken?”, as if it’s something that can happen to “me”! But you are just a thought. The individual, who could awaken or not, is just a thought arising now. Your entire life, your life story, your past and future – it’s just a thought. And a thought doesn’t need to awaken. That thought is already arising in Oneness. And in the seeing of that, there is a clarity that an “individual” could never attain.

You see, the question “how can I awaken?” can never be answered. The spiritual search is the search for the answer. When it’s seen that the individual who asks that question is just a thought, that and all questions fall away. It’s a plunge into not knowing.

Actually awakeness is that which asks the question. Oneness is asking that question. You are not doing it. The question “when will I reach Oneness?” is being asked, already, by Oneness. Oneness disguised as “you”, pretending to want answers to your dream questions!

Q.  But when the identity drops away, it drops in a moment, doesn’t it?

That’s what drives the search, the idea of a moment of awakening. And then there’s a search for that moment. “When will that moment come?”, we ask.

Q.  But did the clear seeing, when it happened, happen in a moment? That’s the way I’ve heard it described.

It’s beyond time. You know, that’s what I was looking for, that moment of falling away. But as long as I was looking for it, there was a separate “me” looking for it. And as long as there was a separate “me” looking for it, there was frustration. I was locked in a world of time and space. It was in the midst of that frustration that it all opened up.

Q.  So you were in the midst of frustration, and then there was clear seeing?

Yes, but it was seen that there was only ever clear seeing! Clear seeing is all that’s happening. This, right now, is arising in clear seeing. But it can be obscured, apparently, by the seeking game. When the seeking game falls away, the clear seeing, which is ever-present, is revealed. It’s the cosmic joke really. Oneness is fully present, right now, but we cannot see it as long as we’re looking for it. But the seeking game plays itself out, until it doesn’t anymore. And the idea of choice is the only suffering in this.

*

Q.  I experience my life, especially when listening to you and listening to this message, as a here-ness, and that here-ness is awakeness and awareness. And each person who asks a question has this sense of hereness. And the experience of being a separate person is built onto that, and believed. And although one speaks about the absence of a separate self, that can sometimes be confusing to me, because the overriding experience is one of realness. Although there isn’t a separate person, there is something undeniably real about the experience of being here, of reality. Or is that just another conceptual overlay?

Well of course the moment we talk about it, we are using concepts. We can call it Oneness, hereness, nowness, whatever. And of course it’s not about the words. So call it whatever you want, it’s all there is.

Q.  Yes, awakeness is all there is.

Yes, we can call it awakeness. So the individual looking for awakeness will never find it, because they never lost it. It’s been there right from the beginning.

Q.  They were only ever that.

Yes. Right from the start.

*

Q.  I’ve got a funny image of the seeker, going round and seeking like mad, and suddenly stumbling across his own absence.

[Laughter]

Yes, it’s the cosmic joke. And yet it plays itself out perfectly. Oneness pretending to be two, pretending to be separate, in order to find itself. It’s a game. And to the individual, it can all seem very heavy. The seeking can get very heavy. There can be a real desperation to it. “I’ve only got a limited amount of time on this earth, and I need to awaken before I die!” That can get very serious. But the cosmic joke of all of this, is that the individual already arises in the most perfect awakeness, the most perfect presence. It’s all there is. That’s why some teachers call awakening the booby prize! You gain nothing, and lose everything, but in that loss is a clarity and an effortlessness that could never be reached by a person seeking it.

*

Q.  Why is it that some apparent individuals aren’t interested in reality?

Because this isn’t something that they can have. The mind is only interested in something it can have.

Q.  But everyone you see, they all have that reality. Some apparent people simply aren’t interested. People we encountered coming here on the train, for example.

On the train?

Q.  Yes, on the train.

Oh you’ll find a lot of people on the train who aren’t interested in this!

[Laughter]

Q.  It’s just that I am puzzled as to why individuals aren’t interested in their own reality.

[Pause]

Q.  Maybe they don’t need to be.

That’s it. They don’t need to be. There’s nothing out of place. If they’re not interested, they shouldn’t be.

Q.  You mean it’s appropriate?

Absolutely. Otherwise this becomes a religion you see.

Q.  Right, right. And then this wouldn’t be freedom, because they wouldn’t be free to be what they are.

Exactly. This freedom allows that. It allows everything. It allows …

Q.  … disinterest?

Yes.

Q.  Because otherwise it becomes a religion and it’s no longer free?

Yes.

Q.  But religions are okay as well. And presumably lack of freedom is okay.

Of course.

*

Q.  Jeff, we’ve already said a bit about spiritual practice. A lot of nonduality writers and teachers these days…

Are you calling me a nonduality teacher?

[Laughter]

Q.  They say that spiritual practices don’t serve any purpose because there’s nobody there to do the practice. Would you say that when the seeing through occurs, it’s a matter of grace?

The moment we talk about “it” happening, the mind latches onto that and wonders when this grace will happen. It’s grace in the sense that it’s free. It can’t be had. It can’t be possessed. It’s already screaming from the walls, from the ceiling, from the chair, and the moment you want it you can’t have it.

And in terms of spiritual practices, this is not about giving them up. They fall away of their own accord. Or this could be seen, and spiritual practices could continue. But the seriousness goes out of them. They regain their joyfulness. Everything does. Because everything is allowed to be itself, fully. So spiritual practices are allowed to be spiritual practices, but there’s nobody there anymore trying to get something from them.

Q.  Which presumably is why you find some people who are self-realised continuing their spiritual practices, and others who don’t?

Yes, but there’s no way of knowing what will happen. It just unfolds of its own accord, in its own time.

That’s how this message could be heard though: that there’s nothing to get, so you should give up. But that would be to miss the point entirely.

*

Q.  Yes, this has gone through my mind. If there’s nothing to get, what should I do? What is there to do? It seems like a paradox.

Yes. Some people refer to this as the “Traditional Advaita” versus “Neo-Advaita” debate. To practise or not to practise? To follow the traditions or to leave them behind? If everything is perfect, what is there to do, right? If this is all there is, what use are spiritual practices? But you see, those questions arise from a complete misunderstanding of what the word “Advaita” points to.

It’s not that there is nothing that you can do. And it’s not that you should give up what you are doing, because that’s also how this may be heard. The point is, there is no “you” who can choose either way.

In other words, it’s doing itself. Already. So the reason I don’t give out any spiritual practices is because I don’t know. I don’t know what is best for you. And anyway, you already have the practice you need.

Q.  It’s this.

It’s this. Oneness cannot be practised. And when that is seen in clarity, the whole thing falls away. And you could call that “awakening” if you wanted to.

So that’s why I don’t give out particular practices, and not for any other reason. And that’s also why I would never tell anyone to stop practising, as if they had a choice. What happened over here is that the practices fell away when it was seen that there was nobody there practising. I would sit for hours and meditate, and there would be a constant question: “who the hell is doing this?” And during the self-enquiry, the question was always “who the hell is doing this?”. I never found anyone there doing any of those things. Perhaps that is where all these practices lead to in the end.

And so the practices just fall away of their own accord. Or not, actually. There’s no prescription here. There’s no way of knowing what will happen when this is seen. And really, this is always the practice. Whatever you find yourself doing, is always the practice that you need in that moment.

You see, it’s always already doing itself. It’s already practising through you. The miracle is already happening. And the clear seeing of that destroys the whole Traditional Advaita versus Neo-Advaita debate, which is just another intellectual game the mind plays to keep itself alive. How the mind loves its intellectual games. How the mind loves to be right. How the mind, in its innocence, loves to cling to its traditions, its religions, its beliefs, and criticise those who don’t do the same.

You see, it’s already complete. And it’s nothing like you ever thought it would be. Who would have thought awakening would be this? Who would have ever thought?

Q.  Every time I hear that, the question is: what’s the difference then, I mean, if there’s nothing between you and I? Teachers often say “I’m the same as you”. So what’s the difference then?

That question has fallen away.

[Laughter]

I never got an answer to that! There is no answer.

[Laughter]

This is absolute equality you see. There’s just Oneness. And in that, different stories arise. The Jeff story, the John story, the Mary story. It’s Oneness playing. Playing the role of different characters. We are being played. We are Being playing.

*

Q.  There’s this one thing, about the “I” thought being a mistake. But it’s not a mistake, is it? It’s consciousness seeing itself. Playing. But there’s something, isn’t there, about not being good enough, in human beings?

The separate person will never be good enough. There’s no hope!

[Laughter]

Q.  Or too good.

Yes, that’s the same movement really. The same thing. I mean, the ultimate version of not being good enough, is not being awake yet. Not being enlightened. Not being present enough.

[Long silence]

*

Q.  Can I ask a question? You talk about the “I” thought. Something I heard which resonated was “look for where the I thought originates”. But I’m not sure if that can be answered.

Yes, you are only ever left with the looking. That’s the illusion, that it originates from somewhere, from a point. That there’s an entity there. That there’s something there. And the real point of self-enquiry is that it will eventually end in frustration, because that point cannot be found. And even if you think you’ve found it, that’s just a thought: “I’ve found it”. You’ve found it, so what? That isn’t the origin. There is no origin.

The illusion is that the “I” originates from somewhere. It comes out of nothing, and that nothing can never be found. It’s not part of the world of time and space. So seeking the source of the “I” could only ever end in despair, but perhaps in the midst of that despair something else can open up. The space that opens up there is very powerful, and very alive.

The “I” comes out of nowhere, of nothing. It comes out and dances. And it’s not the enemy. For years I tried to get rid of it. And what I couldn’t see was that in trying to end it, I was strengthening it. It was an I – a very strong I – trying to get rid of an I!

[Laughter]

“I’m going to end the I! I’m going to do it!” I mean it’s funny now, but at the time it was deadly serious!

*

Q.  I find that when difficult thoughts come up, I often believe them.

Yes, and the suffering is seeing them as your thoughts. That you are doing it. Thoughts are not personal, and that’s the hardest thing to hear. The mind doesn’t like spontaneity!

Thoughts just come out of nowhere, and dissolve back into nothing. Like clouds passing through the sky.

Q.  But they feel very real.

Yes, they can do. But you are not doing it. If you were doing it, you would stop those thoughts. You wouldn’t think them.

Q.  I wouldn’t want the pain.

Yes, you wouldn’t want the pain. Which shows that you are not doing it. Thoughts just arise, and the mind goes “these are my thoughts, they are about me, I need to do something with them”. And that’s the resistance to what is. That’s the suffering.

Actually, the thoughts don’t need that. They don’t ask that of you. They don’t ask to be manipulated, to be condemned, to be controlled. Nothing asks that of you. Things just want to arise and dissolve of their own accord. They just want to live, and be left alone. But the mind can’t keep its grubby hands off anything.

Thoughts just come and go. They arise out of nothing, stay for a bit, and dissolve. The mind latches onto them. That’s the heaviness. That’s the depression. “I need to do something with these thoughts!” It’s always grasping. It doesn’t want to leave anything alone. It wants to dominate, to control everything.

*

Q.  When you say that, it sounds like the mind is influencing things, that the mind is doing something, that makes me feel responsible, and that’s where I get a bit confused. I’ve heard it said many times that everything just arises, but on another level I don’t believe that.

Oh, you can’t believe it.

Q.  Yes, and that’s where I get stuck.

It’s an incredibly convincing illusion. For example, are you choosing to move your hands, the way you just did?

Q.  I wasn’t aware of it. But it seems that at other times I do choose.

Yes, it’s a very convincing illusion! The illusion of choice. It’s amazing. Amazing. And you can’t understand it. Nobody can understand it. It cannot be understood. To the mind, a full understanding of this would be like death. And that’s the last thing it wants. So you don’t want to understand this, really! Nobody wants to.

To the mind this is death. Death of control. Death of choice.

Q.  It’s terrifying.

Yes. To the mind, death is the end of “me”. The end of my control over the world. The end of choice. That’s why we fear death and illness. Because they show us that we don’t have any choice. We wouldn’t choose to get ill and die, if we had the choice. So illness and death are our teachers. And to the mind that can be quite depressing!

[Laughter]

Q.  Yes, it all seems pointless.

Yes, that’s how the mind will hear this. That it’s all pointless. It hears that there’s no choice and it goes, “oh shit! What’s the point in carrying on!”

[Laughter]

You see, it can’t hear this. That what it thinks is death, is absolute freedom. The mind sees it as death, as something to fear. That’s it’s way of protecting itself. It doesn’t want to give up control. Its job is to go out into the world and go “I’m doing this, I’m in control, I’m king of the world!” It’s like a constant mantra. The moment you wake up in the morning, it begins. “I’m doing this, I’m waking up, I’m getting out of bed, I’m brushing my teeth, I’m having breakfast, I’m going to work.” And on and on. It’s incessant.

This cannot be understood but it can be seen. And the simplicity of that seeing destroys all questions, because it destroys the one who asks the questions, the “me”. And in fact it’s already being seen. And in that seeing, choice can go on, or the story of choice, anyway. Breathing happens, and the heart beats, and thoughts come out of nowhere, and in hindsight the mind goes “I did that!” And so, thinking that it did that, it doesn’t want to let go. So it’s lost in this illusion.

Q.  That’s not to deny that there’s choice, it’s just that there’s nobody who’s choosing.

Yes, the play of choice goes on. Absolutely. I can apparently choose to clench my fist now. [Clenches fist] Undeniably, the play of choice goes on. The mind doesn’t want to stay with the absolute spontaneity of what happens, because that absolute spontaneity cannot be known. To the mind, if something cannot be known, it’s worthless, it’s pointless. And actually that not knowing is absolute freedom, complete liberation, whatever you want to call it, and it’s all that’s ever happening.

*

Q.  So is the mind just telling a story? It’s not actually doing anything?

Ultimately the mind isn’t doing anything. It has no control. These stories just arise. Stories about this apparent outside world, they just arise.

Q.  Do you have stories?

Stories can arise. To function in the world, they appear to be necessary. There is nothing wrong with stories, that’s the point. This life that we appear to live is just a wonderful play of stories. Happy stories, sad stories, but stories all the same. And a story is not serious. It’s just a story. So if someone asks me my name, there is a response: “my name is Jeff”. I don’t go round telling people that I have no name, that I am not here, and so on. 

*

Q.  There are a lot of horrible stories. That’s a sticking point.

It’s very easy to hear about Oneness being the trees, the flowers, the sky, and all the beautiful stuff. It’s much harder to hear that Oneness is everything. It’s the dog poo on the ground. It’s serial killers. It’s the Holocaust. The mind doesn’t want to hear that.

But at the same time, this isn’t a cold detachment from the world. It’s not a denial of the harsh realities of life. Nor is it a blind acceptance of cruelty, violence and so on. It doesn’t mean that you sit back and do nothing. It doesn’t mean that you condone the Holocaust, for example. All of this is how it may be heard. And all of this misses the point entirely.

Q.  Yes, you tend to move more towards the pain and the suffering when awakening happens.

Exactly. Because you’re not separate from any of it. There are no separate people.

And yet, there’s an old man walking across the road, and you don’t sit back and say to yourself “there’s nobody there, nobody is walking across the road, it’s all my story, it’s all perfect as it is… so I don’t need to do anything.” That would be to take this, and use it as a philosophy, in order to justify action. That’s the mind grasping again!

What I find, is that the old man is seen, and there is just movement, to help him across the road, and it comes from nowhere. And there’s no sense that I’m doing it, there’s no sense that I’m trying to be a good person. There’s no sense that I’m doing it because it’s the compassionate thing to do. It just does itself. And there is amazement at that. I’m helping myself across the road.

Q.  So it happens spontaneously, and it’s not the result of an agenda, or a moral code?

There’s no agenda. In the absence of the separate person, there is just compassion. This is what the word “compassion” really points to: the end of separation. The word is from the Latin - it literally means “to suffer along with”. To see that your suffering is not separate from my suffering. That suffering is not owned by anyone. That there is really nothing between us, apart from our stories, which are just figments of the imagination anyway.

The word “love” points to this too. And the word “nonduality”.

But this compassion isn’t something that you do. It’s all there is. And in the seeing of this, there is just effortless action. But there’s no way of knowing what action there will be. There’s no way of knowing that you’ll cross the road to help the old man.

Q.  Presumably, you may not?

Yes. But there’s no way of knowing. This cannot be used as a philosophy. This isn’t another set of guidelines, telling you how to live, what to feel, how to treat others. There’s enough of that in the world.

[Pause]

Of course, you may push the old man over, just for a bit of fun.

[Laughter]

I’m joking of course.

*

Q.  For lack of a better description, when understanding takes place, or when the separate self is seen through, it seems to me that although one talks about stories arising, my experience is that energetic arisings happen more in the realm of feelings and bodily sensations. I’ve been through a lot of health concerns in the last few months, with apparent realities, although when they’re looked at medically not much is seen. But the experience is first this, then that, then this. There’s an experience of an energetic momentum. Stories aren’t arising on the level of story anymore, it’s stories arising on the level of feelings. The residues of self-concern that remain, they’re on the level of bodily concern. When understanding takes place, is there a process where the bodily organism settles in with this? Is that your experience, or is that just another conceptual way of looking at it?

There are no rules.

Q.  In my manifestation the idea of being a separate person has been around for a long time. There seems to be an accumulation of residue.

There is no residue.

*

Q.  Is there only one manifestation?

Yes, and it appears in the form of many separate manifestations. That’s the mystery of it. It’s a constant wonder.

Q.  So this so-called energetic manifestation is taking place… and that’s all there is to it?

Yes, and even that is just another story.

Q.  In that?

In that, yes. It’s amazing.

Q.  But it’s not something you can do anything about?

It’s all given. Already. It’s all given. But we can’t see it because we’re looking for it.

Nothing needs to be done. It doesn’t ask anything of you, at all. It’s absolutely unconditional.

We’re like newborn babies. That’s what we are.

Q.  Because to want part of the manifestation to leave, that would be a wanting, and that’s a condition?

Yes, that would be to put a condition on the unconditional.

You see, it’s happening now. It’s staring you in the face.

Q.  Does putting conditions on it stop you from seeing it?

Absolutely not. Conditions are allowed to arise in this. Even the idea of conditions is allowed to arise in this! The mind might hear this and go “right, I need to get rid of conditions”, and that’s just another goal. So the mind is always buying itself time. It loves the future, it wants a future, in order to keep itself alive. It will do anything to get a future!

[Laughter]

The idea of some sort of block to this is just an idea happening now.

This is happening, and in this arises the idea that I’m a person. It’s just an idea, and that’s all it has ever been. Your entire life, from the very beginning it was only an idea. Me, me, me. I, I, I. And everything was built upon that.

And that can become very heavy. We become like snails with heavy shells.

[Laughter]

That was good, wasn’t it? I’ll write that one down!

[Laughter]

Q.  So freedom is like being a slug?

[Laughter]

Yes, that’s today’s take-home message. Freedom is like being a slug!