Q.  Could you tell us how the awakening happened for you?

It’s always happening.

Q.  But there must have been a moment when it happened for you.

After years and years of really intense seeking, after years of meditation and self-enquiry and questioning of thoughts, all that was left, over here, was despair and frustration. I wanted the awakening and enlightenment that I’d read so much about. I wanted peace, and I never seemed to be able to reach that place. What I could never see back then though, was that there was a separate “me” looking for all these things. I wanted awakening and enlightenment, but I wanted them for “me”. And it was the “me” that was the burden, it was the sense of being a separate person that went right to the heart of my frustration. I was trying to end the self using the self. Trying to end thought using thought. I was lost in these vicious circles of mind. Seeking the end of seeking was more seeking than ever.

And it exhausted itself. You cannot awaken. I cannot awaken. There is no such thing as an awakened person. You see, this is already fully awake. There is only awakeness. And it’s the individual, the person, who thinks they are separate from that, and out of this separation, they seek awakening. All this seeking is doing is fuelling the sense of being separate.

So the individual asks “when will I awaken?”, as if it’s something that can happen to “me”! But you are just a thought. The individual, who could awaken or not, is just a thought arising now. Your entire life, your life story, your past and future – it’s just a thought. And a thought doesn’t need to awaken. That thought is already arising in Oneness. And in the seeing of that, there is a clarity that an “individual” could never attain.

You see, the question “how can I awaken?” can never be answered. The spiritual search is the search for the answer. When it’s seen that the individual who asks that question is just a thought, that and all questions fall away. It’s a plunge into not knowing.

Actually awakeness is that which asks the question. Oneness is asking that question. You are not doing it. The question “when will I reach Oneness?” is being asked, already, by Oneness. Oneness disguised as “you”, pretending to want answers to your dream questions!

Q.  But when the identity drops away, it drops in a moment, doesn’t it?

That’s what drives the search, the idea of a moment of awakening. And then there’s a search for that moment. “When will that moment come?”, we ask.

Q.  But did the clear seeing, when it happened, happen in a moment? That’s the way I’ve heard it described.

It’s beyond time. You know, that’s what I was looking for, that moment of falling away. But as long as I was looking for it, there was a separate “me” looking for it. And as long as there was a separate “me” looking for it, there was frustration. I was locked in a world of time and space. It was in the midst of that frustration that it all opened up.

Q.  So you were in the midst of frustration, and then there was clear seeing?

Yes, but it was seen that there was only ever clear seeing! Clear seeing is all that’s happening. This, right now, is arising in clear seeing. But it can be obscured, apparently, by the seeking game. When the seeking game falls away, the clear seeing, which is ever-present, is revealed. It’s the cosmic joke really. Oneness is fully present, right now, but we cannot see it as long as we’re looking for it. But the seeking game plays itself out, until it doesn’t anymore. And the idea of choice is the only suffering in this.

*

Q.  I experience my life, especially when listening to you and listening to this message, as a here-ness, and that here-ness is awakeness and awareness. And each person who asks a question has this sense of hereness. And the experience of being a separate person is built onto that, and believed. And although one speaks about the absence of a separate self, that can sometimes be confusing to me, because the overriding experience is one of realness. Although there isn’t a separate person, there is something undeniably real about the experience of being here, of reality. Or is that just another conceptual overlay?

Well of course the moment we talk about it, we are using concepts. We can call it Oneness, hereness, nowness, whatever. And of course it’s not about the words. So call it whatever you want, it’s all there is.

Q.  Yes, awakeness is all there is.

Yes, we can call it awakeness. So the individual looking for awakeness will never find it, because they never lost it. It’s been there right from the beginning.

Q.  They were only ever that.

Yes. Right from the start.

*

Q.  I’ve got a funny image of the seeker, going round and seeking like mad, and suddenly stumbling across his own absence.

[Laughter]

Yes, it’s the cosmic joke. And yet it plays itself out perfectly. Oneness pretending to be two, pretending to be separate, in order to find itself. It’s a game. And to the individual, it can all seem very heavy. The seeking can get very heavy. There can be a real desperation to it. “I’ve only got a limited amount of time on this earth, and I need to awaken before I die!” That can get very serious. But the cosmic joke of all of this, is that the individual already arises in the most perfect awakeness, the most perfect presence. It’s all there is. That’s why some teachers call awakening the booby prize! You gain nothing, and lose everything, but in that loss is a clarity and an effortlessness that could never be reached by a person seeking it.

*

Q.  Why is it that some apparent individuals aren’t interested in reality?

Because this isn’t something that they can have. The mind is only interested in something it can have.

Q.  But everyone you see, they all have that reality. Some apparent people simply aren’t interested. People we encountered coming here on the train, for example.

On the train?

Q.  Yes, on the train.

Oh you’ll find a lot of people on the train who aren’t interested in this!

[Laughter]

Q.  It’s just that I am puzzled as to why individuals aren’t interested in their own reality.

[Pause]

Q.  Maybe they don’t need to be.

That’s it. They don’t need to be. There’s nothing out of place. If they’re not interested, they shouldn’t be.

Q.  You mean it’s appropriate?

Absolutely. Otherwise this becomes a religion you see.

Q.  Right, right. And then this wouldn’t be freedom, because they wouldn’t be free to be what they are.

Exactly. This freedom allows that. It allows everything. It allows …

Q.  … disinterest?

Yes.

Q.  Because otherwise it becomes a religion and it’s no longer free?

Yes.

Q.  But religions are okay as well. And presumably lack of freedom is okay.

Of course.

*

Q.  Jeff, we’ve already said a bit about spiritual practice. A lot of nonduality writers and teachers these days…

Are you calling me a nonduality teacher?

[Laughter]

Q.  They say that spiritual practices don’t serve any purpose because there’s nobody there to do the practice. Would you say that when the seeing through occurs, it’s a matter of grace?

The moment we talk about “it” happening, the mind latches onto that and wonders when this grace will happen. It’s grace in the sense that it’s free. It can’t be had. It can’t be possessed. It’s already screaming from the walls, from the ceiling, from the chair, and the moment you want it you can’t have it.

And in terms of spiritual practices, this is not about giving them up. They fall away of their own accord. Or this could be seen, and spiritual practices could continue. But the seriousness goes out of them. They regain their joyfulness. Everything does. Because everything is allowed to be itself, fully. So spiritual practices are allowed to be spiritual practices, but there’s nobody there anymore trying to get something from them.

Q.  Which presumably is why you find some people who are self-realised continuing their spiritual practices, and others who don’t?

Yes, but there’s no way of knowing what will happen. It just unfolds of its own accord, in its own time.

That’s how this message could be heard though: that there’s nothing to get, so you should give up. But that would be to miss the point entirely.

*

Q.  Yes, this has gone through my mind. If there’s nothing to get, what should I do? What is there to do? It seems like a paradox.

Yes. Some people refer to this as the “Traditional Advaita” versus “Neo-Advaita” debate. To practise or not to practise? To follow the traditions or to leave them behind? If everything is perfect, what is there to do, right? If this is all there is, what use are spiritual practices? But you see, those questions arise from a complete misunderstanding of what the word “Advaita” points to.

It’s not that there is nothing that you can do. And it’s not that you should give up what you are doing, because that’s also how this may be heard. The point is, there is no “you” who can choose either way.

In other words, it’s doing itself. Already. So the reason I don’t give out any spiritual practices is because I don’t know. I don’t know what is best for you. And anyway, you already have the practice you need.

Q.  It’s this.

It’s this. Oneness cannot be practised. And when that is seen in clarity, the whole thing falls away. And you could call that “awakening” if you wanted to.

So that’s why I don’t give out particular practices, and not for any other reason. And that’s also why I would never tell anyone to stop practising, as if they had a choice. What happened over here is that the practices fell away when it was seen that there was nobody there practising. I would sit for hours and meditate, and there would be a constant question: “who the hell is doing this?” And during the self-enquiry, the question was always “who the hell is doing this?”. I never found anyone there doing any of those things. Perhaps that is where all these practices lead to in the end.

And so the practices just fall away of their own accord. Or not, actually. There’s no prescription here. There’s no way of knowing what will happen when this is seen. And really, this is always the practice. Whatever you find yourself doing, is always the practice that you need in that moment.

You see, it’s always already doing itself. It’s already practising through you. The miracle is already happening. And the clear seeing of that destroys the whole Traditional Advaita versus Neo-Advaita debate, which is just another intellectual game the mind plays to keep itself alive. How the mind loves its intellectual games. How the mind loves to be right. How the mind, in its innocence, loves to cling to its traditions, its religions, its beliefs, and criticise those who don’t do the same.

You see, it’s already complete. And it’s nothing like you ever thought it would be. Who would have thought awakening would be this? Who would have ever thought?

Q.  Every time I hear that, the question is: what’s the difference then, I mean, if there’s nothing between you and I? Teachers often say “I’m the same as you”. So what’s the difference then?

That question has fallen away.

[Laughter]

I never got an answer to that! There is no answer.

[Laughter]

This is absolute equality you see. There’s just Oneness. And in that, different stories arise. The Jeff story, the John story, the Mary story. It’s Oneness playing. Playing the role of different characters. We are being played. We are Being playing.

*

Q.  There’s this one thing, about the “I” thought being a mistake. But it’s not a mistake, is it? It’s consciousness seeing itself. Playing. But there’s something, isn’t there, about not being good enough, in human beings?

The separate person will never be good enough. There’s no hope!

[Laughter]

Q.  Or too good.

Yes, that’s the same movement really. The same thing. I mean, the ultimate version of not being good enough, is not being awake yet. Not being enlightened. Not being present enough.

[Long silence]

*

Q.  Can I ask a question? You talk about the “I” thought. Something I heard which resonated was “look for where the I thought originates”. But I’m not sure if that can be answered.

Yes, you are only ever left with the looking. That’s the illusion, that it originates from somewhere, from a point. That there’s an entity there. That there’s something there. And the real point of self-enquiry is that it will eventually end in frustration, because that point cannot be found. And even if you think you’ve found it, that’s just a thought: “I’ve found it”. You’ve found it, so what? That isn’t the origin. There is no origin.

The illusion is that the “I” originates from somewhere. It comes out of nothing, and that nothing can never be found. It’s not part of the world of time and space. So seeking the source of the “I” could only ever end in despair, but perhaps in the midst of that despair something else can open up. The space that opens up there is very powerful, and very alive.

The “I” comes out of nowhere, of nothing. It comes out and dances. And it’s not the enemy. For years I tried to get rid of it. And what I couldn’t see was that in trying to end it, I was strengthening it. It was an I – a very strong I – trying to get rid of an I!

[Laughter]

“I’m going to end the I! I’m going to do it!” I mean it’s funny now, but at the time it was deadly serious!

*

Q.  I find that when difficult thoughts come up, I often believe them.

Yes, and the suffering is seeing them as your thoughts. That you are doing it. Thoughts are not personal, and that’s the hardest thing to hear. The mind doesn’t like spontaneity!

Thoughts just come out of nowhere, and dissolve back into nothing. Like clouds passing through the sky.

Q.  But they feel very real.

Yes, they can do. But you are not doing it. If you were doing it, you would stop those thoughts. You wouldn’t think them.

Q.  I wouldn’t want the pain.

Yes, you wouldn’t want the pain. Which shows that you are not doing it. Thoughts just arise, and the mind goes “these are my thoughts, they are about me, I need to do something with them”. And that’s the resistance to what is. That’s the suffering.

Actually, the thoughts don’t need that. They don’t ask that of you. They don’t ask to be manipulated, to be condemned, to be controlled. Nothing asks that of you. Things just want to arise and dissolve of their own accord. They just want to live, and be left alone. But the mind can’t keep its grubby hands off anything.

Thoughts just come and go. They arise out of nothing, stay for a bit, and dissolve. The mind latches onto them. That’s the heaviness. That’s the depression. “I need to do something with these thoughts!” It’s always grasping. It doesn’t want to leave anything alone. It wants to dominate, to control everything.

*

Q.  When you say that, it sounds like the mind is influencing things, that the mind is doing something, that makes me feel responsible, and that’s where I get a bit confused. I’ve heard it said many times that everything just arises, but on another level I don’t believe that.

Oh, you can’t believe it.

Q.  Yes, and that’s where I get stuck.

It’s an incredibly convincing illusion. For example, are you choosing to move your hands, the way you just did?

Q.  I wasn’t aware of it. But it seems that at other times I do choose.

Yes, it’s a very convincing illusion! The illusion of choice. It’s amazing. Amazing. And you can’t understand it. Nobody can understand it. It cannot be understood. To the mind, a full understanding of this would be like death. And that’s the last thing it wants. So you don’t want to understand this, really! Nobody wants to.

To the mind this is death. Death of control. Death of choice.

Q.  It’s terrifying.

Yes. To the mind, death is the end of “me”. The end of my control over the world. The end of choice. That’s why we fear death and illness. Because they show us that we don’t have any choice. We wouldn’t choose to get ill and die, if we had the choice. So illness and death are our teachers. And to the mind that can be quite depressing!

[Laughter]

Q.  Yes, it all seems pointless.

Yes, that’s how the mind will hear this. That it’s all pointless. It hears that there’s no choice and it goes, “oh shit! What’s the point in carrying on!”

[Laughter]

You see, it can’t hear this. That what it thinks is death, is absolute freedom. The mind sees it as death, as something to fear. That’s it’s way of protecting itself. It doesn’t want to give up control. Its job is to go out into the world and go “I’m doing this, I’m in control, I’m king of the world!” It’s like a constant mantra. The moment you wake up in the morning, it begins. “I’m doing this, I’m waking up, I’m getting out of bed, I’m brushing my teeth, I’m having breakfast, I’m going to work.” And on and on. It’s incessant.

This cannot be understood but it can be seen. And the simplicity of that seeing destroys all questions, because it destroys the one who asks the questions, the “me”. And in fact it’s already being seen. And in that seeing, choice can go on, or the story of choice, anyway. Breathing happens, and the heart beats, and thoughts come out of nowhere, and in hindsight the mind goes “I did that!” And so, thinking that it did that, it doesn’t want to let go. So it’s lost in this illusion.

Q.  That’s not to deny that there’s choice, it’s just that there’s nobody who’s choosing.

Yes, the play of choice goes on. Absolutely. I can apparently choose to clench my fist now. [Clenches fist] Undeniably, the play of choice goes on. The mind doesn’t want to stay with the absolute spontaneity of what happens, because that absolute spontaneity cannot be known. To the mind, if something cannot be known, it’s worthless, it’s pointless. And actually that not knowing is absolute freedom, complete liberation, whatever you want to call it, and it’s all that’s ever happening.

*

Q.  So is the mind just telling a story? It’s not actually doing anything?

Ultimately the mind isn’t doing anything. It has no control. These stories just arise. Stories about this apparent outside world, they just arise.

Q.  Do you have stories?

Stories can arise. To function in the world, they appear to be necessary. There is nothing wrong with stories, that’s the point. This life that we appear to live is just a wonderful play of stories. Happy stories, sad stories, but stories all the same. And a story is not serious. It’s just a story. So if someone asks me my name, there is a response: “my name is Jeff”. I don’t go round telling people that I have no name, that I am not here, and so on. 

*

Q.  There are a lot of horrible stories. That’s a sticking point.

It’s very easy to hear about Oneness being the trees, the flowers, the sky, and all the beautiful stuff. It’s much harder to hear that Oneness is everything. It’s the dog poo on the ground. It’s serial killers. It’s the Holocaust. The mind doesn’t want to hear that.

But at the same time, this isn’t a cold detachment from the world. It’s not a denial of the harsh realities of life. Nor is it a blind acceptance of cruelty, violence and so on. It doesn’t mean that you sit back and do nothing. It doesn’t mean that you condone the Holocaust, for example. All of this is how it may be heard. And all of this misses the point entirely.

Q.  Yes, you tend to move more towards the pain and the suffering when awakening happens.

Exactly. Because you’re not separate from any of it. There are no separate people.

And yet, there’s an old man walking across the road, and you don’t sit back and say to yourself “there’s nobody there, nobody is walking across the road, it’s all my story, it’s all perfect as it is… so I don’t need to do anything.” That would be to take this, and use it as a philosophy, in order to justify action. That’s the mind grasping again!

What I find, is that the old man is seen, and there is just movement, to help him across the road, and it comes from nowhere. And there’s no sense that I’m doing it, there’s no sense that I’m trying to be a good person. There’s no sense that I’m doing it because it’s the compassionate thing to do. It just does itself. And there is amazement at that. I’m helping myself across the road.

Q.  So it happens spontaneously, and it’s not the result of an agenda, or a moral code?

There’s no agenda. In the absence of the separate person, there is just compassion. This is what the word “compassion” really points to: the end of separation. The word is from the Latin - it literally means “to suffer along with”. To see that your suffering is not separate from my suffering. That suffering is not owned by anyone. That there is really nothing between us, apart from our stories, which are just figments of the imagination anyway.

The word “love” points to this too. And the word “nonduality”.

But this compassion isn’t something that you do. It’s all there is. And in the seeing of this, there is just effortless action. But there’s no way of knowing what action there will be. There’s no way of knowing that you’ll cross the road to help the old man.

Q.  Presumably, you may not?

Yes. But there’s no way of knowing. This cannot be used as a philosophy. This isn’t another set of guidelines, telling you how to live, what to feel, how to treat others. There’s enough of that in the world.

[Pause]

Of course, you may push the old man over, just for a bit of fun.

[Laughter]

I’m joking of course.

*

Q.  For lack of a better description, when understanding takes place, or when the separate self is seen through, it seems to me that although one talks about stories arising, my experience is that energetic arisings happen more in the realm of feelings and bodily sensations. I’ve been through a lot of health concerns in the last few months, with apparent realities, although when they’re looked at medically not much is seen. But the experience is first this, then that, then this. There’s an experience of an energetic momentum. Stories aren’t arising on the level of story anymore, it’s stories arising on the level of feelings. The residues of self-concern that remain, they’re on the level of bodily concern. When understanding takes place, is there a process where the bodily organism settles in with this? Is that your experience, or is that just another conceptual way of looking at it?

There are no rules.

Q.  In my manifestation the idea of being a separate person has been around for a long time. There seems to be an accumulation of residue.

There is no residue.

*

Q.  Is there only one manifestation?

Yes, and it appears in the form of many separate manifestations. That’s the mystery of it. It’s a constant wonder.

Q.  So this so-called energetic manifestation is taking place… and that’s all there is to it?

Yes, and even that is just another story.

Q.  In that?

In that, yes. It’s amazing.

Q.  But it’s not something you can do anything about?

It’s all given. Already. It’s all given. But we can’t see it because we’re looking for it.

Nothing needs to be done. It doesn’t ask anything of you, at all. It’s absolutely unconditional.

We’re like newborn babies. That’s what we are.

Q.  Because to want part of the manifestation to leave, that would be a wanting, and that’s a condition?

Yes, that would be to put a condition on the unconditional.

You see, it’s happening now. It’s staring you in the face.

Q.  Does putting conditions on it stop you from seeing it?

Absolutely not. Conditions are allowed to arise in this. Even the idea of conditions is allowed to arise in this! The mind might hear this and go “right, I need to get rid of conditions”, and that’s just another goal. So the mind is always buying itself time. It loves the future, it wants a future, in order to keep itself alive. It will do anything to get a future!

[Laughter]

The idea of some sort of block to this is just an idea happening now.

This is happening, and in this arises the idea that I’m a person. It’s just an idea, and that’s all it has ever been. Your entire life, from the very beginning it was only an idea. Me, me, me. I, I, I. And everything was built upon that.

And that can become very heavy. We become like snails with heavy shells.

[Laughter]

That was good, wasn’t it? I’ll write that one down!

[Laughter]

Q.  So freedom is like being a slug?

[Laughter]

Yes, that’s today’s take-home message. Freedom is like being a slug!